The Zork Library Forum

There is a topic I've wanted to discuss here for a long time.  I have held off because of potential spoilers to the TAP game "Dawn of the Demon."  Also, the topic is somewhat self-serving since I wrote the game.

Anyway, here's the thing:

In all of the Zork and Enchanter series text adventure games (plus RTZ and GI), there is the ever-present danger of grues lurking in the dark.  But the thing that always seemed to puzzle me was how you could be in a room, a closet, a small trunk, anywhere with all exits and entrances are locked or non-existent.  Then you examine the location very carefully and there are absolutely no grues present.  But as soon as you turn out the light, grues are upon you in two or three moves.  Or, if you turn on the lights back on soon enough, the grues are gone.

You have to ask yourself, where the heck did these grues come from and where the heck did they go?

I think that I came up with a rather ingenious answer to this question and it is one of the things that I implemented it into DotD.  I'd like to get your reactions to the situation that I portrayed in the game.

Spoiler warning...
If you haven't played Dawn of the Demon, this topic constitutes a major spoiler.
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The way I resolved this dilemma was to invent a parallel realm of existence which I call The Dark World.  The Dark World has the interesting property that all dark locations are connected even though, in our realm, they may be completely isolated.

For instance, we go into a lighted room.  We see 4 walls, a ceiling and a floor.  No doors, windows, entrance or exits.  To an inhabitant of the Dark World, these rooms are walled-off and completely inaccessible.  Meanwhile, a Light World inhabitant is confined within the room and unable to get out.  However, when the lights in the room are extinguished, the dark room becomes an open space from the perspective of someone in the parallel realm of the Dark World.  Now, Dark World inhabitants can move freely into the dark room because, to them, the walls no longer exist.

Of course, my implementation of the Dark World is not Official Quendorian history.  But it is pretty consistent with what little is officially know about grues.  For instance, in Wishbringer we enter a grue's lair where there is a baby grue sleeping in a crib or craddle and nearby is a refrigerator which has a light that goes out whenever the door is opened.  In the Undiscovered Underground, we encounter grues participating in a grue convention, wearing name tags and carrying brief cases.  This suggests that grues are, in some respects, much like us - that is - they have a somewhat ordered society, family life, jobs, etc.  

So I portrayed the grues and populated the Dark World with this sort of image.  Albeit, considerably more primative a world than ours.

I've really been wanting to get some feedback or impressions from other people as to how they liked my portrayal of grues, their world, and how they are able to sometimes intersect into our world.  Mostly, what do you think of the Dark World concept?

I thought it it was very clever. indeed, as well as a reasonable explanation of the existing canon. It is also quite in keeping with the spirit and humor of the Infocom era games. As I recall it was one if my favorite parts. My explanation of grues is more in keeping with Nemesis, bizarrely enough.  :-/

It is also a great example of the wonderful possibilities that exist in the Zork universe for fan creativity.  There is so much that can be done  with this world if only more people would discover it!

Siriusstar wrote:

My explanation of grues is more in keeping with Nemesis, bizarrely enough.

This is intriguing.  What do you mean by that?  
Also, did I miss something, or is Nemesis the only Zork game that doesn't include grues?  If not, why do you suppose that is?

Ingenious, and it makes a lot of sense. This reminds me of a quote concerning the mysterious grues that always makes me laugh, which, ironically, comes from someone's negative review of RTZ:

"There are several parts of this game where you enter a dark area, like a cave, or maybe you just turned off the lights in the inn. Whenever you're in a dark place, it says, "Just the way grues like it." and then five seconds later, you die. Nowhere is it explained what the heck a grue is, why they kill you so quickly in a dark room, or even why they allow hotels to sell you rooms that are home to possibly thousands of these things that wait for the chance to be in the same room as you without any pesky photons in the way, and when you flip off the switch they're all over you like ants on a donut, and when room service comes in the following afternoon, they find your bleached skeleton sitting on the bed in an embarrassing panicked position."

This is intriguing.  What do you mean by that?  
Also, did I miss something, or is Nemesis the only Zork game that doesn't include grues?  If not, why do you suppose that is?

I'm still experimenting with the grues. As I currently have them written, they're a minor form of 'destructive spirit elemental' or ‘magical parasite’ that feeds off elemental magic as well as mortal flesh.  They are deadly in dark places (as we all know.) But light robs them of their physical form and power- they exist as powerless spirit in the light, which is their mortal enemy no matter how weak the source. They are especially plentiful in the Underground where there is both a lot of magic and complete darkness. They actually do NOT exist everywhere, but they’d be drawn to those gifted with elemental magic or, of course, to anyone unwise enough to wander into their territory. They became dormant after the events in Spellbreaker and 'different' upon magic's return. Long story...

That’s the short of it. Their form and nature strikes me as a bit more Nemesis-like in its seriousness. Though perhaps not out of place in the Enchanter trilogy, either.

There actually are grues in Nemesis, IIRC. They aren't nearly so easy to stumble upon as they are in the Infocom era games, but I'm pretty sure I remember getting eaten by them at least once.

Ingenious, and it makes a lot of sense. This reminds me of a quote concerning the mysterious grues that always makes me laugh, which, ironically, comes from someone's negative review of RTZ:

"There are several parts of this game where you enter a dark area, like a cave, or maybe you just turned off the lights in the inn. Whenever you're in a dark place, it says, "Just the way grues like it." and then five seconds later, you die. Nowhere is it explained what the heck a grue is, why they kill you so quickly in a dark room, or even why they allow hotels to sell you rooms that are home to possibly thousands of these things that wait for the chance to be in the same room as you without any pesky photons in the way, and when you flip off the switch they're all over you like ants on a donut, and when room service comes in the following afternoon, they find your bleached skeleton sitting on the bed in an embarrassing panicked position."

LOL! [smiley=evil.gif] Oh the visuals! Thanks! I really needed a good laugh.

...But one must point out that the reviewer did not read their game material. It tells all about grues in the Encyclopedia Frobozzica, which came with RTZ.  ;)

While on the subject of grues, there is what seems to be an instance of someone not getting eaten in the dark in Sorcerer. When your character wakes from the dream it is said your frotz spell must have worn off and your character wakes in darkness. Why wasn't he eaten in the night? Do grues only come after you when you're awake?

Siriusstar wrote:

There actually are grues in Nemesis, IIRC. They aren't nearly so easy to stumble upon as they are in the Infocom era games, but I'm pretty sure I remember getting eaten by them at least once.  

You're right - I think.  In the Monastery catacombs, near Yoruk's sarcophagus, if you fail to light the torch and venture into the dark, you get eaten by "something".   It's probably a grue.  But there are things...demons?...that constantly growl at you in the catacombs - even in the light.

Your theory of grues is pretty interesting and quite fanciful.  Much in keeping with what I *think* is your style of adventuring.  I like it and it is, perhaps, consistent with my Dark World interpretation since the Dark World is some sort of magical or spiritual realm that is inhabited by grues.  My vision is more in keeping with my science background rather than a fantasy background.  But maybe they both say the same thing but from different perspectives.

The portrayal of grues as in Wishbringer or The Undiscovered Underground seem to imply a sort of community existence among grues.  This is not inconsistent with your vison of grues, but it seems somewhat foreign to it.  What do you think of the portrayal of grues in TUU?

(Concerning grues in Sorcerer)
Just what my signature addresses.  ;) I have two possible answers for that mystery...

Lazy answer: Just like darkness, a second necessary condition for grues is the game having started.

Better (slightly): Perhaps they hunt in the pitch darkness by reading humans' brainwaves, but a kind only active or detectable when one is awake...or it could be that the character wasn't moving while asleep. In the older Zork games, you can't get eaten by a grue by standing still, though you certainly can in the graphic games like ZGI...

The portrayal of grues as in Wishbringer or The Undiscovered Underground seem to imply a sort of community existence among grues.  This is not inconsistent with your vison of grues, but it seems somewhat foreign to it.  What do you think of the portrayal of grues in TUU?

You can look at the grues of Wishbringer in two ways. You don’t see the grues until AFTER Festeron has turned into Witchville. Are grues fully-formed and domestic because that’s normal for them, or because of the powerful transformative magic of ‘The Evil One?’  You could go either way depending on preference.

I hadn't played TUU in a long time so I replayed it last night to refresh my memory. It is a fun little game. In my other old fandom there would be a ton of discussion as to whether it is truly 'canon' or a kind of parody. As it was written by the original authors I have to conclude that it IS canon. I just have a hard time with grues 'glowing.’ It seems adventurers could see them coming in the dark if they glowed! The grue convention is very clever and amusing. It reminds me a little of faerie as described in Susannah Clarke's short stories. The grues are emulating humankind in a rough, rather twisted way.

Actually it seems that my grues became more like your grues and TUU's grues after Spellbreaker. When the world and magic is rebuilt, the grues are given a physical form as solid (and mortal) as any human. As I wrote about in my game outline set after Z:GI- even grues were being killed by 'something' much deadlier than themselves... and asked for help!

ETA: As with most things in this universe TUU isn’t PERFECTLY consistent with prior canon. For instance, this character isn’t the first to see a grue. Beyond Zork’s, Wishbringer’s & Spellbreaker’s characters saw them too. Maybe this character didn’t know that, though. lol

More interesting notes on Sorcerer: Although it says grues abound in the darkness when your character wakes, you don't get eaten no matter how much dawdling you do. The same goes for the cellar & Guild Chamber. Perhaps there are anti-grue spells on the Guild Hall.

I hadn't played TUU in a long time so I replayed it last night to refresh my memory. It is a fun little game. In my other old fandom there would be a ton of discussion as to whether it is truly 'canon' or a kind of parody. As it was written by the original authors I have to conclude that it IS canon. I just have a hard time with

You're right that there is something that seems parody-ish about TUU.  But as you say, it was written by the original Implementors, so...

The crude way that the grues mimic humans in TUU reminds me of the Bizarros in Superman.  By this, I mean the original Bizarros in the original Superman universe.  Not too many years ago, the the whole Superman universe and history was rewritten and Bizarros are something else now.

I haven't played Wishbringer in a long time so I cana't remember if it is possible to find some dark in Festeron in order to test for grues.

Ah...TUU, my first Zork game ever.  :D
I have a guess to explain the glowing: perhaps they don't normally glow, but the character sees the grue only when it is exposed to the light, right before it spontaneously combusts. The glowing might just have been a precursor to that, the very first effect light has on the grue. That could also explain why the character's grue disguise doesn't convince the grues in the convention for long. But it's just a guess...

I was watching Dr Who on SciFi yesterday.  There was something in the story that I thought was reminiscent of Sirusstar's theory on grues.

The Dr Who episode was called something like "Beware the Weeping Angels"  or maybe it was called "Blink".  I'm not sure.  Anyway, there were these statue-like creatures which the Dr explained had the perfect defense mechanism.  He said they were quantum-locked.  What he meant by that was that they only existed when no one was looking at them.  The instant someone observers them, they turn to stone.  But the instant they are unobserved, even in the blink of an eye, they can move very quickly.

Pretty interesting and somewhat similar to grues in the dark and light.